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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 8:00 pm 
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Posts: 8
New to the forum and hoping for some advice.
I am aware my questions might not be relevant as it’s not relating to a GS and it’s for a Reception place. But thought it maybe worth a try.
I have submitted an oversubscription appeal and will receive a reply mid June.
There are 3 R classes, the PAN is 84 and it is an academy school.

The school have informed me that over the past 3 years they have had 258 appeals for R and Y7. 213 for Y7, only 2 upheld. 45 for R 0 upheld!!
So I know I don’t have a hope in **** of winning this but I’ve come this far with it so might as well still try. :(

My question is, regarding Academies funding. Think they get an agreed amount off the government for the no. of agreed pupils. So if they admitted 1 more pupil would they not receive any funding for that pupil until Y1?

Funding must be there main argument because the classrooms are big enough for 30 pupils but they have never gone above 28 pupils.

Apologies if none of this makes sense, I have waffled on or posted in the wrong topic.


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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 9:52 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 6:26 pm
Posts: 8609
Welcome to the forum! :)

Mslongroad21 wrote:
I am aware my questions might not be relevant as it’s not relating to a GS and it’s for a Reception place.
You're quite right that most of the posts on here tend to be about grammar schools, but you're very welcome to ask about appeals for Reception.

Quote:
So if they admitted 1 more pupil would they not receive any funding for that pupil until Y1?
If I'm not mistaken, they do eventually get the money, but have to wait for it!

Quote:
the classrooms are big enough for 30 pupils
Do we know the size of the rooms?

Quote:
I have submitted an oversubscription appeal and will receive a reply mid June.
It sounds as if there is no hearing by means of Zoom or MS Teams.
Is there an opportunity to submit questions in writing?

Could you tell me how years 1 & 2 are organised?
Do they keep to 3 classes of 28 in each year? Or do they combine classes for Y1 & Y2 ("vertical grouping")?

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PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2021 11:07 pm 
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Thanks Etienne :)

There will be a hearing. I have chosen the option of video zoom call.
When I submitted the appeal I received an email stating they would send further details W/C 14th June. I presume it will be the schools case and the date for the appeal.

It’s a 3 form entry, 3 classes of 28 pupils for each year. The building is fairly new and has 9 classrooms. All the class bases are bigger that 54m2, largest Reception class is 60.2m2.

Seems impossible to win at this school.


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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 1:13 am 
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Quote:
It’s a 3 form entry, 3 classes of 28 pupils for each year.
Thanks - just checking that there is no Infant Class Size future prejudice.
If they keep to 3 classes of 28, there isn't.

From memory, 62m2 is a recommended figure for a class of 30 infants (building bulletin 103).
I've not checked the details, but they should be somewhere in here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... chools.pdf

I think the school is likely to win its case at stage one (most schools do!), so it would probably be best to focus most of your energy on stage two (your reasons for wanting a place).

If you've not seen it already, there is advice on how to approach the two stages here:
https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appea ... -school#c1
https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appea ... -school#c2

Do ask if you have any further questions.

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PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 12:56 pm 
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Panel member here.

It is possible to win an appeal for Reception. You have in your favour that this is what is termed an 'overcrowding' appeal rather than one for Infant Class Size. (pan is 28 per class)

Infant Class Size appeals are VERY difficult to win, but overcrowding ones rather easier. Ask questions like 'What would be the impact in real terms of an additional child in hte class?"

Ask if there has ever been more that 28 in a class? Did the teacher cope? (The answer will be yes - because all teachers have to cope with however many children are put into their classes) How many children with SEND are there in each class? Is there a need for more space for a child with a disability? How many TA's are allotted to each class? Are there any extra TA's for children with an EHCP?

You will need to show to the panel that there is a very good reason why only this school will do. If there are other local schools with space in Reception, that's not good. If you don't like the school offered because its not got a good reputation, then that's not good either! Tell them your reasons for wanting it, and be as honest as you can.


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PostPosted: Sun May 23, 2021 8:18 pm 
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Joined: Thu May 20, 2021 1:23 pm
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Only just seen this new post.
Thank you so much for your advice.

The points you have made are really helpful. I wouldn’t have thought to ask all of those questions.

Will keep all this in mind on the actual day of the appeal.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 22, 2021 3:01 pm 
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Hi Etienne/ forum I have finally received the schools case for our appeal.

The school emailed me in May to say I would get further appeal information and the date for our appeal W/C 14th June. I didn’t receive anything so emailed the school yesterday and was told I would receive it 22nd June. The letter arrived today, dated 21st June.
I feel like if I hadn’t of emailed them to chase it up, I wouldn’t have heard anything until very near to the appeal date. Surely that is unacceptable?

The schools case is what I was expecting. They state class sizes are too small to admit another child, funding etc and would effect the high standard of teaching they offer.
There is only 1 child with an EHCP and no confirmed pupils with SEND.
They have never gone of their PAN of 84, 28 pupils in a class.
Please can I email this to someone to take a look at the full letter. My appeal is 6th July and starting to really feel like I don’t stand I chance.

Also the schools Head Master is the presenting officer. Is he allowed to ask me questions on the day?

Thank you X


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 6:53 am 
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Probably not of major importance but, just so you have the facts to hand, maybe worth finding out their staffing levels. Ratios of staff to children are different in Early Years to the rest of primary school, I'm not sure what they are for Reception and I'm just dashing out sorry.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 8:40 am 
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For infant classes (years where the eldest child will - normally - be no older than 7), 'additional measures' must be taken where there are more than 30 in a class, not including legally 'Excepted' pupils. That is, an additional qualified teacher must be employed. The school can't possibly be employing 28/30ths of a qualified teacher - it's one where qualified teacher whether there are 10 or 30 pupils.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:20 pm 
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Thanks Doodles and Toadmum.

The classes have 28 pupils so it’s not an infant class size appeal or an issue regarding pupils to teacher ratios.

Another point to add to my appeal.


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