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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 8:31 pm 
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I’d value some advice or thoughts on our situation if possible.
Unfortunately our dd was unsuccessful at selection review with a score of 113.

To summarise - recommended 1:1 and predicted 111-120 across all 3 subject areas. 3b for lit, and 3c for others for ks1. Working at GDS across all 3 subject areas across yrs 3,4 and 5 consistently.

Extenuating circumstances were that she had a v disrupted year 5 with inconsistent teaching due to teacher absence. This was stated in a recent Ofsted report. We moved her school due to these issues in April 2017 as she was so unhappy so she only had 1 term in her new school. New head concurred that score was not reflective of her capability and confidence had been knocked by school change. When we submitted the review evidence the previous school was (still is) in such turmoil with an interim head that they said they did not have any assessments to share (no time /interim head didn’t know her). We were never informed of any Cats at the first school so no idea if they did them so could not include them ourselves other than the ‘GDS’ shown on the report. So our academic evidence was limited but included Pirls and Puma assessments standardised assessments from new school with age standardised scores of 130 and 131. Without knowing what the objective criteria are for the reviews how could we know this would not be enough evidence? If we had known we would have waited to go for appeal and sought more evidence.

Selection review outcome ticks the statement: they could not wholly agree with the expected performance levels...” and the reason given was “since child at school for one term panel questioned info provided”. But if 2 schools have found her to be working at GDS then surely that’s better than 1 school?!? Consistency of opinion?

I would think this process of selection review was not fair or consistent as it was not able to consider other evidence given time constraints and there was no way for us to get more given first schools lack of help. If we could get this now and ask her current school to undertake some Cats is it worth an appeal in your opinion?

Thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 11:30 pm 
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Welcome to Appeals! :)

Sorry to hear your news.

If I suggest some possible weaknesses in your case, it's not to be wantonly critical, but to help prepare for scrutiny at any subsequent appeal.

Quote:
..... and predicted 111-120 across all 3 subject areas ..... Working at GDS across all 3 subject areas across yrs 3,4 and 5 consistently.
If you look at the rubric on the headteacher's review form, it's clear that there is no "111-120" for Writing, and that "GDS" shouldn't be used for years 3-5. Not your fault, but it may not inspire total confidence. Is this a Bucks primary school?

Quote:
3b for lit, and 3c for others for ks1.
If the panel wanted to quibble, 3b "for the others" would have been better.

However, before taking any other factors into account, I would have thought the Y6 predictions do not look unrealistic in the light of what has gone before.

Quote:
recommended 1:1
If this was a Bucks primary school, it depends how realistic the school's recommendations turned out to be. If the head exaggerated the recommendations as a whole, it could have weakened your case.

Quote:
Extenuating circumstances were that she had a v disrupted year 5 with inconsistent teaching due to teacher absence. This was stated in a recent Ofsted report. We moved her school due to these issues in April 2017 as she was so unhappy so she only had 1 term in her new school. New head concurred that score was not reflective of her capability and confidence had been knocked by school change. When we submitted the review evidence the previous school was (still is) in such turmoil with an interim head that they said they did not have any assessments to share (no time /interim head didn’t know her).
The review panel could, of course, only consider the evidence it was presented with.

The extenuating circumstances need mentioning, but I wonder why they would affect the 11+ score rather than routine school work (which is said to be very good)?

Quote:
We were never informed of any Cats at the first school so no idea if they did them so could not include them ourselves other than the ‘GDS’ shown on the report. So our academic evidence was limited but included Pirls and Puma assessments standardised assessments from new school with age standardised scores of 130 and 131.
130-131 looks good. You would need a brief factsheet to explain to an appeal panel what these tests are.

Quote:
Without knowing what the objective criteria are for the reviews how could we know this would not be enough evidence? If we had known we would have waited to go for appeal and sought more evidence.
There is indeed a question to be raised about what objective criteria were used - but there is no requirement to notify parents in advance of what those criteria might be.

Quote:
I would think this process of selection review was not fair or consistent as it was not able to consider other evidence given time constraints and there was no way for us to get more given first schools lack of help. If we could get this now and ask her current school to undertake some Cats is it worth an appeal in your opinion?
I'm a bit doubtful that a school could put on a CATs test just for your child. They usually have to pay for a whole year group. The alternative is for you to consider getting an EP report - and you could, of course, point out to an appeal panel that there was insufficient time for you to arrange this for review purposes.
https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appea ... ication#b3

I do think it would be worth seeing what an appeal panel think, although - as I'm sure you realise - you now have three hurdles to overcome: FCO, qualification, prejudice.

I assume you've seen Section D of the following link?
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=50029

Do let us know if we can be of any further help.

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Etienne


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:58 am 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:18 pm
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Thank you so much Etienne - very helpful. I consulted this site a lot before we submitted the review so it is all very much appreciated.

Sorry the error for the writing grades was mine - just trying to quickly summarise the info!

Yes it is a Bucks primary - this year they had an excellent pass rate compared to usual and last year’s SATS v good - it is a v good school. I don’t know how many were ranked 1:1 but the headteacher said that several passed whom she didn’t expect to and our DD was the one she thought should have who didn’t. However it seems this doesn’t count for much as only there a term. She has only been a head for 2 years.

I guess the impact was not seen in her school work because the pressure isn’t as great as in an exam but I take your point. All criticism taken with appreciation and grace!

We are v undecided whether to go for appeal as we don’t want to put our daughter through much more scrutiny with an EP report. We are lucky our upper school is excellent. We just feel the process has been unfair as it seems the review panel said she needed MORE academic evidence than others because she had only been at this school for a term - but the evidence we provided was from year 2 in her previous school - but maybe we are reading between the lines.

Lots to think about. Yes I have read all the helpful advice on appeals.

One final question just for my own info - if you are successful at appeal and then for some reason prefer to stick with a non grammar, do you lose the original school offer? I know that’s v v unlikely to happen but just wondered how the process works.

Kind regards and thanks again

Woobywoo


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:51 am 
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I think also stating KS2 levels as sub levels was not helpful as they aren't in the 'right' format.

This is what Heads were told to do [my italics]:
"Please record the Key Stage 1 outcomes using national curriculum levels.
For Key Stage 2 record, using your own assessment system for Years 3, 4 and 5, whether this child has not met (HNM), has met (EXS) or is working at greater depth (GDS) of age related expectations.

In the prediction column for July 2018, please refer to the recently published (September 2017) 2018 Interim Assessment Framework and grade accordingly, noting that this is a ‘complete fit’ grading system and that pupils need to have demonstrated consistent attainment of all the statements within the standard. For children working at EXS in reading and mathematics, please indicate a predicted scaled score range of (100- 110) or (111-120). For writing, where there is no national test, please include if the child is working at greater depth (GDS)."

Were the other assessments - pirls and puma - explained? I wouldn't expect most Heads [especially GS Heads] to know about them.

I think the panel might also have doubted the Year 5 assessment given the disrupted schooling you describe.


Last edited by Guest55 on Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Woobywoo wrote:
Yes it is a Bucks primary - this year they had an excellent pass rate compared to usual and last year’s SATS v good - it is a v good school. I don’t know how many were ranked 1:1 but the headteacher said that several passed whom she didn’t expect to and our DD was the one she thought should have who didn’t.
Good. This should be part of your case for any appeal. Even better if the head would put it all in writing, so that it comes from the school rather than from you.

Quote:
I guess the impact was not seen in her school work because the pressure isn’t as great as in an exam but I take your point. All criticism taken with appreciation and grace!
Problem is that almost everyone tends to resort to "pressure" and "nerves".
One might expect a disrupted schooling to have more of an impact on school work than on the 11+ which purports to be a test of innate ability.
You would need to choose your words carefully. We can give more thought to this if you decide to appeal.

Quote:
We are v undecided whether to go for appeal as we don’t want to put our daughter through much more scrutiny with an EP report.
Normally I would advise not telling the child about any appeal. This, of course, becomes a bit harder if you start sending her off for an EP report (unless you can justify it as being done out of general interest).

The EP assessment itself is not particularly pressurised. The tests are not strictly timed. The EP will usually make an effort to establish a rapport and get the child as relaxed as possible. Some EPs might even be willing to carry out the assessment in the home environment.

There is also a possibility that you might not need an EP report. The advantage of an appeal, compared with a review, is that there is much more time available. It is just possible that, by the date of any appeal hearing in May/June, the strength of support from a reliable headteacher might be sufficient for a good case. It depends how willing the head will be to back you up.

Quote:
We are lucky our upper school is excellent. We just feel the process has been unfair as it seems the review panel said she needed MORE academic evidence than others because she had only been at this school for a term - but the evidence we provided was from year 2 in her previous school - but maybe we are reading between the lines.
This apparent unfairness should be part of your case.

Quote:
One final question just for my own info - if you are successful at appeal and then for some reason prefer to stick with a non grammar, do you lose the original school offer? I know that’s v v unlikely to happen but just wondered how the process works.
I'm not aware that you would lose your original offer if you promptly reject the offer of a grammar school place.
You are free to withdraw from the appeal process at any point in time.

Because you are free to withdraw from the process at any time, my advice would be to keep your options open, and submit an appeal in March.
You need only write "At the hearing, by which time we hope to have had sight of the school case, we shall wish to query whether the Selection Review was 'fair, consistent & objective'" and "Full details of our case to follow".

Hope this helps.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:48 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:18 pm
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Thank you guest55 and Etienne. Really helpful advice. We will think anon and probably submit an appeal and then refine our decision as the evidence is gathered and the time approaches. As you say nothing to lose (except parental hours and effort but we’re all used to that anyway aren’t we :) !!!

When the time comes to seek your advice about wording the bit on impact on school results versus 11+ (Thank you for this offer Etienne) do I just post again on this thread or should I PM someone?

Thanks,

Woobywoo


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
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Quote:
do I just post again on this thread or should I PM someone?
I'm happy to try and help if you post on this thread.

Do keep in touch.

(Although I don't give advice by PM, there are other members who might be willing to do so.)

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Etienne


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:18 pm
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Hi - just looking at filling out the bucks secondary appeals form and reading through the appeals parents guide. Has it changed much from last year? Can I just check it is still ok to write that ‘at the hearing, when we wish to have seen the schools case, we shall wish to query whether the selection review was FCO’. It seems to want us to state our reasons why up front. Would it still be your advice to use the statement above?

Thanks,

Woobywoo


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:05 pm 
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Hi Woobywoo

Could you let me have the exact wording of the question? (I can't see it unless I request an appeal for myself! :) )

Thanks

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Etienne


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:42 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:18 pm
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Of course!
It asks you to put in transfer test score and then tick if you went for a SR or not. If SR was not successful then it opens up a box:
“Please explain why you consider that the SR was not fair, consistent or objective” (4000 word limit.
Then ‘ would you like to upload supporting evidence’.

Next section says: “Please explain why your child is suitable for a grammar school” (4000 word limit). Plus would you like to upload supporting evidence.

Next section says:” Please explain why you want a place at this school” (4000 limit). Do you want to upload supporting evidence?

Each section is a free text box but must have something written in it to move to next section. In the parents guide it says “you must explain why you are appealing in writing on your appeal form. You should also provide evidence supporting your appeal, if possible”.
My reading of it is that we cannot just say we wish to appeal this at the hearing but we have to make our written case now. And then we can send supporting evidence later. It feels that we are not doing what they ask if we just say “we wish to appeal it was not f,c,o at the hearing.
Thanks for any interpretations!!!
Woobywoo


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