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PostPosted: Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:49 pm 
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Etienne wrote:
Rsinsinwar wrote:
doesn’t the organisation and comprehension issues outlined bring the point of IQ down?
Why?
His IQ is what it is. He still finishes up with a full scale IQ at the 96th percentile. ->OK

Quote:
What do they mean for us, Ds and schools - current/appealing for).
Like mad? I didn't quite understand. Are you thinking that "SEN" is going to create some terrible problem? -> Yes, as in school May say already we are short of resources and now a SEN child will need additional attention say for better comprehension support, during exams etc.

Quote:
what does SEN mean for my Ds as the report mentions it but as per HT, he has no SEN although he agrees about his slow writing and agreed for extra time for his SATs,
I haven't seen a legible copy of the head's letter, but if the school has agreed to extra time it sounds to me that "slow and painful" writing (caused by his medical condition) is a special need -> is SEN given preference over score for admission criteria by law? Do I have to make any statement in my appeal about this as disability or disadvantage?

Quote:
which won’t help for his appeal in any case :(
Why not? If he had been granted extra time in the 11+, which is strictly timed, it would presumably have helped him?
The WISC tests (most of them) are not strictly timed, and it could be argued that they provide a better indication of his ability. -> his assessment was strictly timed.

It begs the question why there was no application for extra time in the 11+, but I assume you didn't know this might be possible. -> we hd no clue what access arrangement meant at that time and the whole family was going through medical upheaval to figure out the meaning.

We didn’t even inform the school that Ds is sitting 11+ exam.
When did the school agree to extra time for SATs? Was it after the 11+? -> as recently as last wk.

Quote:
I am trying to figure out who is authority to confirm SEN - ed psy/school/doctors/parents/ LA? Which will be valid for the IAP?
The IAP will consider whatever evidence you give them.
I can't speak for your panel, but personally I would have thought it sufficient to provide
• evidence of the medical condition
• recommendation for extra time from the EP
• confirmation from the school of extra time for SATs

Quote:
It appears as though it was an un identified SEN it that counts as mitigating circumstance?
Yes - an unidentified SEN should be considered as a mitigating circumstance.

Quote:
And does having Sen also make him a weaker pupil to be able to cope with school writing work in the view of IAP and school?
No.
I am pleasantly surprised.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 6:52 am 
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Luckily Rsinsinwar google is your friend on the curriculum, a quick ask enabled me to find this:

http://www.dartfordgrammarschool.org.uk ... urriculum/
and

http://www.dartfordgrammarschool.org.uk ... /Subjects/

So talk of a middle years programme but subjects studied are GCSEs in much the same way as any school.

Also, you mention quality of teaching, but there is no evidence this is any better at Dartford than at Wilmington.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 8:06 am 
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Location: Petts Wood, Bromley, Kent
Sorry Rsinsinwar but the impression I am getting is that you don't really know how Dartford Grammar differs from Wilmington as evidence on this thread, especially about how the IB is delivered at Dartford, points to you getting the wrong impression about how the school might your DS's needs. Did you attend the open days and have you looked at how different the curriculum is to the one you might need in a few years time if you do move? It may be that you need to look at Independent schools to get the match you are looking for, the next main entry point won't be until Y9 but many schools pick their students years before that.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 10:03 am 
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Rsinsinwar wrote:
Sorry for the muddled query Mad?

In a nut shell, we r new to concept of SEN, we are ourself discovering that my son has been identified by this report to need extra time which may be due to his medical condition but no doctor /school had identified educational issues earlier. I am trying to figure out who is authority to confirm SEN - ed psy/school/doctors/parents/ LA? Which will be valid for the IAP? And given different view from ed psy and HT which one should I follow in the appeal? It appears as though it was an un identified SEN it that counts as mitigating circumstance? And does having Sen also make him a weaker pupil to be able to cope with school writing work in the view of IAP and school?

As for IB, my understanding/assumption is that it’s a curriculum in itself and any school/state schools have to follow IB throughout not only in 6th form as my son’s previous school followed IB curriculum from primary years. GCSCE is integrated in IB curriculum. Please correct me because I may be far from on ground reality in state grammars who call themselves IB Schools but are no different than other state schools in terms of curriculum.

I still wonder if I will be able to make sense to IAP given my current state of queries :( , this is my biggest fear , I will be all over the place leaving more work for IAP.

Hi I can understand your concerns about the SEN issue.....my son has a diagnosis of dyspraxia or developmental coordination disorder which mostly affects his ability to organise himself and his handwriting. He is also gifted at maths and science and has high verbal abilities...as well as a chronic autoimmune condition. It seems to me kids often come with gifts and challenges. It just means you and they have to to make some adaptations to support their learning. My son uses a laptop for longer written tasks and can have extra time for rest and movement breaks in exams. His grammar school has been excellent at supporting him.
If I were in your position I would want to know what support either school can offer your son rather than focusing on the ofsted reports...ask to speak to the SENCO at your allocated school and the one you are appealing to...see how welcoming they are towards your enquiry. I suspect a bright child is going to thrive at either school mentioned...


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 11:12 am 
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Posts: 51
Thanks for the comments on IB and SEN, will follow up with both schools on Curriculum and SEN needs. Does the doctor identify SEN or physical issues causing SEN? I am meeting the doctor today.

Thanks


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 12:14 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 12, 2005 5:26 pm
Posts: 7799
Hi Rsinsinwar

It was a good idea to use the "->" symbol, but if adding comments within a lengthy quotation, could I gently suggest using colour and/or bold print to make your replies really stand out?
The first time I skimmed through your post, the only comment I noticed was "I am pleasantly surprised" !

For example, look how much easier it is to see your replies below:

      Etienne wrote:
      Rsinsinwar wrote:
      doesn’t the organisation and comprehension issues outlined bring the point of IQ down?
      Why?
      His IQ is what it is. He still finishes up with a full scale IQ at the 96th percentile. ->OK

      Quote:
      What do they mean for us, Ds and schools - current/appealing for).
      Like mad? I didn't quite understand. Are you thinking that "SEN" is going to create some terrible problem? -> Yes, as in school May say already we are short of resources and now a SEN child will need additional attention say for better comprehension support, during exams etc.

      Quote:
      what does SEN mean for my Ds as the report mentions it but as per HT, he has no SEN although he agrees about his slow writing and agreed for extra time for his SATs,
      I haven't seen a legible copy of the head's letter, but if the school has agreed to extra time it sounds to me that "slow and painful" writing (caused by his medical condition) is a special need -> is SEN given preference over score for admission criteria by law? Do I have to make any statement in my appeal about this as disability or disadvantage?

      Quote:
      which won’t help for his appeal in any case :(
      Why not? If he had been granted extra time in the 11+, which is strictly timed, it would presumably have helped him?
      The WISC tests (most of them) are not strictly timed, and it could be argued that they provide a better indication of his ability. -> his assessment was strictly timed.

      It begs the question why there was no application for extra time in the 11+, but I assume you didn't know this might be possible. -> we hd no clue what access arrangement meant at that time and the whole family was going through medical upheaval to figure out the meaning.

      We didn’t even inform the school that Ds is sitting 11+ exam.

      When did the school agree to extra time for SATs? Was it after the 11+? -> as recently as last wk.

      Quote:
      I am trying to figure out who is authority to confirm SEN - ed psy/school/doctors/parents/ LA? Which will be valid for the IAP?
      The IAP will consider whatever evidence you give them.
      I can't speak for your panel, but personally I would have thought it sufficient to provide
      • evidence of the medical condition
      • recommendation for extra time from the EP
      • confirmation from the school of extra time for SATs

      Quote:
      It appears as though it was an un identified SEN it that counts as mitigating circumstance?
      Yes - an unidentified SEN should be considered as a mitigating circumstance.

      Quote:
      And does having Sen also make him a weaker pupil to be able to cope with school writing work in the view of IAP and school?
      No.
      I am pleasantly surprised.


Alternatively, just copy each bit you want to comment on, paste it, select/highlight it, and then click on the quote button Image,
which is what I've done with my comments below:

Quote:
Yes, as in school May say already we are short of resources and now a SEN child will need additional attention say for better comprehension support, during exams etc.
I understand the point you're making, but by "the prejudice to the school" we normally mean "the prejudice that would be caused by an extra body".
It's numerical rather than personal.
Besides, I don't think either the school or the IAP would want to be seen discriminating against children with special needs.

Moreover, if the special needs happen to be substantial, it would be unlawful to discriminate.

Quote:
is SEN given preference over score for admission criteria by law?
No - preference would only be given to an EHCP (previously known as a statement of special needs) naming the school. This is for more serious cases, difficult to get, and would take time.

Quote:
Do I have to make any statement in my appeal about this as disability or disadvantage?
Leave "disability" to the panel - they have a duty to consider the evidence and decide whether there is a disability within the meaning of the Equality Act.

"Disadvantage" - yes. You could argue that, with the benefit of hindsight, it is now clearer that your son was at a disadvantage in the test.

Quote:
his assessment was strictly timed.
There may have been more flexibility than you realised. I may not be up to date with WISC V (the current version), but if I look at Wikipedia, timing is only singled out with regard to block design: "Block Design (primary, FSIQ) – children put together red-and-white blocks in a pattern according to a displayed model. This is timed, and some of the more difficult puzzles award bonuses for speed."

I note that your EP says "On the day of assessment, other than [medical condition], X’s health was good and unlikely to affect the outcome of the assessment. Nevertheless, we agreed that should he experience any discomfort due to [medical condition] he would let me or his mother know and he would be welcome to take a break or cease the assessment and re-start at a later date."
This sort of very relaxed approach wouldn't be available in the 11+.
"Come back in a week's time and you can finish the test then!" :?

Quote:
we hd no clue what access arrangement meant at that time and the whole family was going through medical upheaval to figure out the meaning.
A very useful point to make as part of your case.

Quote:
as recently as last wk.
Another useful point to make as part of your case.

Quote:
I am pleasantly surprised.
Grammar schools tend to have far fewer cases of special needs than non-selective schools, so in many ways it should be easier for them to cope.

DC17C wrote:
If I were in your position I would want to know what support either school can offer your son rather than focusing on the ofsted reports...ask to speak to the SENCO at your allocated school and the one you are appealing to...see how welcoming they are towards your enquiry.
Very sound advice from DC17C.

See: https://www.elevenplusexams.co.uk/appea ... -school#c2
      "There have been several cases on the forum where parents wanted a particular grammar school because of its well-regarded SEN department. I have no doubt that their case was helped by the fact that – rather than settle for a few snatched words at a busy open evening – parents had taken the trouble to have a specially arranged meeting with the SenCo at a number of grammar schools to find out what they could do to meet their child’s particular needs."

Quote:
Does the doctor identify SEN or physical issues causing SEN? I am meeting the doctor today.
You could ask what he thinks.

Quote:
I will send HT recommendation in appealbox in jpeg form if it’s ok Ettiene
Yes. :)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2018 1:40 pm 
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Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:34 pm
Posts: 1157
Rsinsinwar wrote:
Thanks for the comments on IB and SEN, will follow up with both schools on Curriculum and SEN needs. Does the doctor identify SEN or physical issues causing SEN? I am meeting the doctor today.

Thanks

If there are possible coordination or organisational issues like dyspraxia or other specific learning challenges being considered a paediatrician needs to eliminate other causes...Hypermobility disorders and other developmental conditions are often associated with issues with organisational and body coordination issues or it could possibly be related to the other health issues you have mentioned.....


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:16 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:16 pm
Posts: 51
PettswoodFiona wrote:
Sorry Rsinsinwar but the impression I am getting is that you don't really know how Dartford Grammar differs from Wilmington as evidence on this thread, especially about how the IB is delivered at Dartford, points to you getting the wrong impression about how the school might your DS's needs.


true, but my assumption is IB is just a framework, Subject matter remains the same, but you are right I dont have insider info about how schools runs through the maze of differrent curriculums


PettswoodFiona wrote:
Did you attend the open days and have you looked at how different the curriculum is to the one you might need in a few years time if you do move? It may be that you need to look at Independent schools to get the match you are looking for, the next main entry point won't be until Y9 but many schools pick their students years before that.


I have tried some of ur suggestions Ettienne ;)

no, we only attended one open evening, that was the only exposure we got of any school in UK other than the school my kids primary, how differrent are open days? we were so medically harassed condition most of last 2 years, that open days was luxury vacation in some sense :)
And yes private school is the next option ofcourse, but did u mean for 13+also, they select children at age 11?


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2018 11:20 pm 
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Joined: Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:16 pm
Posts: 51
DC17C wrote:
Rsinsinwar wrote:
Thanks for the comments on IB and SEN, will follow up with both schools on Curriculum and SEN needs. Does the doctor identify SEN or physical issues causing SEN? I am meeting the doctor today.

Thanks

If there are possible coordination or organisational issues like dyspraxia or other specific learning challenges being considered a paediatrician needs to eliminate other causes...Hypermobility disorders and other developmental conditions are often associated with issues with organisational and body coordination issues or it could possibly be related to the other health issues you have mentioned.....


can I please PM you to understand what your Ds's case is and share mine's too. Although the ed psy ruled out dyspraxia. Its muscle inflammation due to his Autoimmune disease as of now as per the GP - going to meet the almighty Hematologist tomorrow for further clarity.

All I feel is, its minimal, or I am hoping to hear it :)


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2018 12:47 am 
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Posts: 7799
I've now received the pdf version of your appeal.

I think there are the makings of quite a good case, but it's far too long, and it lacks focus.

I must now be cruel to be kind! :wink:

The IAP won't be interested in the professions of great grandparents, grandparents, etc.
In fact, the first main paragraph isn't needed.
"6 different schools" could come under "extenuating circumstances" (e.g. "He has had to cope with six different schools in his short life".)
His medical condition would also be better under "extenuating circumstances".

I don't like the paragraph "Diverse passions and interests"!
Are golf, swimming, 'beginner level' piano, etc. really a reason for choosing this school?
If so, they should come under "Reasons for seeking a place", with evidence of high achievement, e.g. grade 5 piano (which he hasn't got).
I wouldn't object to a paragraph on "Academic interests out of school".

In your list of extenuating circumstances, put 2a last, because you're on weak ground in deciding to send him in for the test. If we're going to include it, it needs less prominence. Try and shorten it.

No need to sub-divide medical circumstances into (a) and (b). Just have a list of extenuating circumstances 1, 2, 3 .......

Family medical issues in the lead up to the 11+ should, I suggest, be second to last. (By the way, I can't see any evidence for them in the appendices.)

Get rid of the summary - you will be invited to sum up at the end of the appeal hearing.
We can work on a good summing up later.

Your next task is to shorten the statement to one side of A4, with no more than 4 headings:
A. Academic ability
B. Academic interests outside of school
C. Extenuating circumstances
D. Reasons for seeking a place

When I've seen the second draft, there will be further comments and suggestions I can make.
Please remember to put your user name in the email header, otherwise your email risks being overlooked.

Don't worry about the English. We can do a bit of polishing when we get to the final draft. Meanwhile you've done well to avoid "Dear Panel members, thank you for ur time" (text speak would look dreadful), "Reasons for wanting a seat", and "my kids" (young goats!).

My opinion of the headteacher's letter is that it very strongly supports your case.
I hesitated only at "This is well managed and does not currently affect his learning or progress". He was definitely trying to be helpful here, but you want to use the medical condition as an extenuating circumstance.
If he's open to suggestions, perhaps it could be omitted. Or could he insert the word "normally" in front of "well managed"?
Or, even better, would he be prepared to consider adding "although it might have affected him on the day of the test"?

I wouldn't worry too much about DS's comprehension. His WISC VCI was still at the 77th percentile, which is very respectable. His real strengths are on the maths/science side, and his overall score (FSIQ) is very impressive.

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