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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 2:51 pm 
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Joined: Tue Mar 05, 2013 9:45 am
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Location: Kingston upon Thames
Javster wrote:
Hi all,

I'm new to the 11+ this year, DS is taking his tests in September 2019. I've been confused about this issue for the past couple of years, and have never had an answer.

Why does Tiffin Boys (maybe girls too) have their Stage 2 test AFTER the CAF date has passed? My thinking is that many parents would add in these schools on the form, not knowing whether their child was eligible for the place. I can't seem to work out their logic. Could anyone help on this please? I'm comparing this with Sutton, and their stage 2 and results are in October, so as parents we can make an informed choice.

Many thanks,

Javster


Doing the test afterwards, rather than before CAF is partly irrelevant, the test can't be failed, it just gives a ranking score against the other candidates

When I say irrelevant, I mean in the context of you are actually competing against an unknown number of other applicants, not to reach a pre-determined score. So unless you know how many others are going to apply (which of course you don't) it has no influence on if you choose to include on CAF, therefore doesn't matter if before or after.

If you think about it, if it was held before and say you got a score of 110 out of max 150 and were told 1000 had done test, would it have changed anything, probably not because you have no idea how many scored better AND will rank it above their other schools as choices.

Anyone can take the stage 1 test, but the admission rules state you need to have taken the admission tests (plural) so the only thing you need to know is if you are eligible to sit stage 2. In practice because holding tests are expensive (and State schools cannot charge a fee to enter them) want to operate a test that covers enough candidates (but not an excessively high number that costs lots extra)

Whilst it is possible to say you can make an informed choice, in reality unless you have a very good, or a low score. Any result that leaves you in the grey borderline area isn't really going to give you any useful info for deciding on if to include on your CAF


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PostPosted: Thu May 16, 2019 4:16 pm 
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Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:00 pm
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Location: Surrey
Sorry to disagree with above thinking, though adjudicator some time ago didn't find against the 3 schools which had adopted this method. 2 of those 3 schools have subsequently changed their admissions arrangements to conduct stage 2 test before CAF date - Sutton Grammar and Henrietta Barnett.

Disclosure of entrance test result was to enable parents to make an informed decision about where to apply for place. Not knowing the result (score or rank) doesn't help in making well informed decision.

If we know that previous year's cut off was, say 102, and my child has scored 99, I would be better informed if I wish to apply or not. Admission in Tiffin (boys and girls) is based on the result of 2nd stage test. I strongly feel that spirit of the Admissions Code require result of this stage should be known before submitting CAF.

As many as 450 to 500 children pass stage 1 test, all are not going to get the place so knowing where the child stand, would definitely help.


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 6:04 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:42 pm
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The reason could be tiffin school want to put all the second stage children put their school as first choice so that they can choose the best children for their school to improve their results.


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PostPosted: Fri May 17, 2019 6:45 am 
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Joined: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:41 am
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Location: Essex
The advice from all quarters (except the ignorant / malicious school gate gossips) is to complete your CAF according to your true order of preference. So if Tiffin is truly where you would like your DS to go and you know that passing stage 1 means that he will be included in the list of applicants who are eligible for a place if they rank highly enough, then put it on the CAF as first preference. You have no means of knowing how many of those eligible will name the school at all, let alone in first preference and be ranked above your DS.

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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:38 am 
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Joined: Mon Nov 21, 2016 4:16 pm
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tiffinboys wrote:
Sorry to disagree with above thinking, though adjudicator some time ago didn't find against the 3 schools which had adopted this method. 2 of those 3 schools have subsequently changed their admissions arrangements to conduct stage 2 test before CAF date - Sutton Grammar and Henrietta Barnett.

Disclosure of entrance test result was to enable parents to make an informed decision about where to apply for place. Not knowing the result (score or rank) doesn't help in making well informed decision.

If we know that previous year's cut off was, say 102, and my child has scored 99, I would be better informed if I wish to apply or not. Admission in Tiffin (boys and girls) is based on the result of 2nd stage test. I strongly feel that spirit of the Admissions Code require result of this stage should be known before submitting CAF.

As many as 450 to 500 children pass stage 1 test, all are not going to get the place so knowing where the child stand, would definitely help.


I agree.

Tiffin has slightly changed their procedure in the last 3 years. When my son sat the test in 2015, we have been given the score for the 1-st stage. it was subsequently disregarded and the admission was based entirely on the 2nd stage result. However with the score that was only three marks away from the possible maximum it was a very informed decision to put Tiffin on CAF even before sitting the 2nd stage test.

In 2018 with the test for this year admission the procedure for the 21st stage result has changed and it is now pass/fail without the score given. Without any feel of how the 2nd stage went, it is difficult to make up your mind as to where to put Tiffin on CAF, if it is not one's first choice.

Also the "Priority" admission area has effectively been reduced to the "Inner" priority one, although that was not known at the time, of course. If we knew that, we probably would not have bothered sitting the 2nd stage test at all as the bus journey is rather long from the part of the "Outer" priority area where we are.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 12:20 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 01, 2016 5:02 pm
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Irisa wrote:
Without any feel of how the 2nd stage went, it is difficult to make up your mind as to where to put Tiffin on CAF, if it is not one's first choice.


You would only have an issue if you were worried you were running out of spaces on your CAF. In London you get six spaces so it wouldn't be a problem for most people.

As long as you have passed the first stage, you should put the school on the CAF in your genuine order of preference. You can't game the system, you can't leapfrog people with higher scores than you by putting Tiffin at the top of your form, you can't lose out on your local comp by putting a different school above it.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 3:21 pm 
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streathammum wrote:
Irisa wrote:
Without any feel of how the 2nd stage went, it is difficult to make up your mind as to where to put Tiffin on CAF, if it is not one's first choice.


You would only have an issue if you were worried you were running out of spaces on your CAF. In London you get six spaces so it wouldn't be a problem for most people.

As long as you have passed the first stage, you should put the school on the CAF in your genuine order of preference..


I quite agree.

streathammum wrote:
You can't game the system, you can't leapfrog people with higher scores than you by putting Tiffin at the top of your form, .


True.

streathammum wrote:
...you can't lose out on your local comp by putting a different school above it.


Yes, you can potentially lose on your local school if you do not make it to any of the 4 grammar schools - 3 in Sutton plus Tiffin - and 2 or 3 comp schools one is considering are not quite "local" although they are in the borough of Sutton, and you miss them on distance. Unlikely but possible. So running out of spaces on CAF even with 6 options is a valid scenario.

Just another two examples of situations that are unlikely but could occur. I know of someone in Cheam who has not been given any schools listed on their CAF. And I know a family with triplets who all ended up in different schools.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 5:49 pm 
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In the situation you describe, you're not 'losing' those local schools. They are schools you would never have got into, regardless of where you put them on the CAF.

You must always put one school on you CAF that you are confident you will get. There will almost always be one, even if you really don't want it. With six spaces, you can afford five 'gambles' but should still put one safe bet.

I have sympathy if your safe bet has a funny year and you fail to get in when every other year you would have. Maybe there was a really high sibling rate, or a new housing estate with 200 families was built between you and the school. But you really must find out which school children near you got into on distance last year and put it on your form.


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